Beyond Politics
New York, NY
Season 1, Episode 5
GUEST: Jonathan Klein, President of CNN/U.S.
HOST: Stan Pottinger
STAN POTTINGER: Can we be honest here for one moment? Isn't it true that the single most important factor in the success of a television show is hair?
JONATHAN KLEIN: It depends. If you have good hair, yes.
POTTINGER: In which case, why am I here at the moment? Why is Donald Trump?
KLEIN: It's the hair. No, no. It's--
POTTINGER: What's this thing about Lou Dobbs' hair?
KLEIN: It may just be any hair whether it's good or not. I don't know. Yeah.
POTTINGER: There have been a few bald guys --
KLEIN: They always[ph?] have hair. Have hair seems to be important. Not that many bald newscasters.
POTTINGER: No, I guess not. Ron Insana took his wig off and then what happened?
KLEIN: And then see what happened? Nothing good.
POTTINGER: You're right. He put it back on.
KLEIN: Yeah, it's a thought. Yeah. Matt Lauer shaved down. Right? I wasn't there.[ph?] Their troubles at the Today show began when he went with the crew cut, the buzz cut.
POTTINGER: We'd better let him know.
KLEIN: Yeah. See, this isn't a very complicated business.
POTTINGER: Where did you grow up?
KLEIN: I was born in the Bronx. We lived there until I was 9 and then moved up to New Rochelle, New York. I was born about three blocks from Yankee Stadium so I- just, like it or not, I live or die on the Yankees and the Giants and we used to hear in the neighborhood-- You-- Sunday afternoon you'd be playing in Joyce Kilmer Park, which is one block from the stadium, and you'd hear the cheers rising out of there and it was so magical. What was going on in there? What had just happened?
POTTINGER: Did you want to be a baseball player?
KLEIN: Desperately --
POTTINGER: More than anything.
KLEIN: Yeah, and I could barely make my little league team so it doesn't-- It's-- It was quickly shoved into the realm of fantasy and that's probably healthier so--
POTTINGER: Looking around here, I have a sense of theater, that we are in a theater in a sense--
KLEIN: Yeah. I love this place--
POTTINGER: You personally also have background in theater. You wrote the story on which Buffalo Soldiers was based.
KLEIN: I did.
POTTINGER: Is CNN in a sense a historical drama in present tense?
KLEIN: Well, very much what we're doing is we're charting history as it happens. We don't have the luxury of perspective of- or of time and so we have to do our best to place things into their proper context as they happen. That's not always easy to do and that's why the people that we have here on camera and the producers who we have stacking these shows and making the big decisions about what we cover and how much to cover-- That's why it's so important that they be fabulous at what they do and we're fortunate to have people who, as the event is taking place right behind you, can place it into its larger perspective.
POTTINGER: What impact does CNN have on the way politics in this country evolves?
KLEIN: We-- It's been one of the most astounding things to me in the two years that I've been at CNN to see the influence that we have on politicians and on the folks who put pressure on politicians. Four hundred thirty-five members of Congress don't make a move without checking out Lou Dobbs every day. He's become one of the most influential political journalists of the time and that's because he articulates positions and he investigates issues that matter to a certain group of people in this country who are very vocal and call their congressmen. Wolf Blitzer does a show called The Situation in the middle of the afternoon. Right? And it's heavy on political stories but also crammed with news presented in a very visceral, exciting, energized way, and not only does the audience watch him but again influencers watch to find out what's going on.
POTTINGER: If that's the case, how do you make sure that the responsibility you have is fulfilled? How do you make sure that Lou Dobbs as one person doesn't become an information tyrant with 435 congressmen?
KLEIN: Yeah. You have to be very careful about that and we go to great lengths to make sure that everything that we say on the air is true and we have a vetting process that is extremely thorough and has a lot of fail safe mechanisms in it and so we always want to be sure that what we're reporting is grounded in truth, that when we offer opinions we label them as such, when we offer analysis--
POTTINGER: I think one of the strengths of Lou Dobbs in the public is his opinion mixed with news. Do you feel comfortable with that?
KLEIN: Yeah. He clearly labels his show as a blend of news, opinion, and analysis, and that's what he gives you. He respects the audience enough that they're going to know the difference between one and the other so you know it when you see it and Lou is one show in a 24-hour day. Anderson Cooper approaches the mission in a completely different way. Anderson rolls up his sleeves and gets to the scene of the story. Wolf is the calm in the eye of the storm. Right? And all of this news is swirling around him and Wolf just gives it to you straight: Here's what's happening. There are-- Larry King will interview newsmakers and get you greater depth on the events of the day and the people who are driving them. So at CNN we sort of feel that it isn't a choice simply between doing the news and offering opinion. That's a false choice because in fact a lot of the folks who are famous for offering opinion are no longer as popular as they used to be. What the audience wants to see is authenticity and reliability. They want a better sense of why things are happening, not only what's happening. Sure.
POTTINGER: This is an extraordinary set. This is Victoria's Secret runway over here--
KLEIN: Yeah, exactly, to put on a fashion show.
POTTINGER: --and it's colorful, sexy. Tell me how you got this.
KLEIN: Well, we wanted to convey the bigness of CNN. There's a ton of material comes in. It's nonstop barrage of images coming in to the building and we wanted to share that with the viewers and to send a signal that you don't have to look any further for your information than right here and so we wanted an environment that expressed that. So in one easy glance you can see oh, my God, they are- we're surrounded by everything that's going on in the world. It was controversial when we built this set because we just had moved into this headquarters building two years ago and they had built sets already for the shows and then I came in shortly after that and then had this idea that well, actually our sets really ought to convey the vast reach of CNN and also ought to provide a reason to stop watching. A lot of TV viewing is visceral. We wanted to get people just to stop where we are and that's why we wear red raincoats in hurricanes because red'll make you just stop and we figured this would do it and there was concern that well, it costs money and it takes time and--
POTTINGER: [inaudible]
KLEIN: No. A couple of dollars, yeah. Well, it was planned out. It's actually on a per hour basis. It's the cheapest set on television because we do, let's see, three hours in the morning and then three hours in prime time so it's six hours. When you amortize the cost it's really- it pays for itself.
POTTINGER: That point we'll keep in for the shareholders--
KLEIN: Yes, exactly. Thank you.
POTTINGER: Coffins: A question about whether television should or should not show dead American soldiers in coffins. What kind of relationship do you have with the government and government agencies that constrains that kind of a decision?
KLEIN: The past couple of administrations have been quite oriented around manipulating images and trying to control the media for their own ends and we just have to work against that. So we have I think the appropriate relationship, which is we hold them accountable for their actions. We don't cozy up to them. We are respectful. We try to get information out of them on behalf of our viewers. They don't always like it. They usually don't like it but here and there you find people who- in government who get it and want to be helpful and we just did a series called Broken Government in which we pounded away on the failings of the Congress and the administration, the judiciary, conservatives, liberals, Democrats, Republicans, everybody. We held them all accountable and--
POTTINGER: Anybody come down on your head for that?
KLEIN: All of them, most memorably Lynne Cheney. They just were salivating over the opportunity to try to paint us as unpatriotic, un-American, and it kind of washed off the audience because they're on to that sort of spin by now.
POTTINGER: Who do you listen to when you want to say, What am I doing wrong? How can we make this right?
KLEIN: My wife of course. She always knows the answer. It freaks you out a little bit because she- my wife was a journalist and won- Emmy award winning investigative reporter, and now not in the business. She's writing crime novels based on the stories that she covered as a journalist but I- end of the day we can just be sitting there watching and eating dinner. I'm usually eating dinner, on the computer, watching TV, usually have TiVo, one of our shows that I have to catch up on, so I'm always-- You walk in to the TV in the kitchen and it's got the live thing on and then you walk back into the living room and you're living about a half hour or 45 minutes in the past. Anyway, I'll just vent about my day and mention something and she'll just nail the solution. It's very helpful. Also I'm a big believer in mentors. There are people along the way who've I'm sure helped you and helped- and that certainly helped me who didn't need to. They just take an interest in you and they tend to- once they're not immersed in the fray they can give you useful insight. Peter Lund, who used to run CBS, has been a huge mentor for me, invested in my broadband company, and now just is so insightful and wise.
POTTINGER: What's the difference between breaking news and this just in?
KLEIN: Thank you for asking that question because I didn't know for the first six months I was here and there are endless debates about it. Here's the difference: Breaking news is when we've confirmed that it's actually the news, it's actually true. Right? We've independently verified it. Okay. Just in is someone told us this, this is just in to us, here's who's saying it, the Associated Press or a local station in Orlando or what have you, we haven't checked it out ourselves yet, we're just relating it to you right away. That's the difference. It's probably lost on every viewer.
POTTINGER: I'm stunned --
KLEIN: Uh huh. You don't[ph?] remember things like that. Companies and TV networks have all sorts of practices that only they understand and no one else does. Unfortunately, in the communications business you'd like it if your consumers actually got it too.
POTTINGER: The famous Howard Dean Scream: Now we know that he was screaming not because he was a madman, although some of his critics still say he was, but he was trying to speak over failed microphones and yet the impact that that had most directly on a voting public was very huge. How do you deal with the responsibility you have for bringing the truth of that?
KLEIN: Images are very powerful and you also-- When a guy later on says, I was screaming over the microphones you have to filter out whether that is spin and excuse making after the fact or whether that's the truth. We don't always know--
POTTINGER: What happened in that case? Was it spin or--
KLEIN: I don't know. I wasn't even working here at the time--
POTTINGER: You were a viewer though--
KLEIN: Yeah, and I learned a lot as a viewer by the way, which I try to apply here now.
POTTINGER: Do you watch television?
KLEIN: I watch a lot of CNN now. One of the interesting things though is in the six years of my walkabout in the broadband world between the years I spent at CBS News and here at CNN, I found myself not watching that much TV, certainly not that much TV news, and that has been a big touchstone for me as we move forward here because one thing became clear: What we had to do here at CNN was become more essential to people's lives. I didn't watch that much TV news because I really did feel sated with information by the end of the day so there wasn't really a good reason to turn the set on when I got home. That's what we've got to overcome and I think we're making a lot of progress. You've got to just push and listen acutely and critically.
POTTINGER: How do you decide what is sleaze and what is interesting?
KLEIN: Your gut kind of knows and also it's a matter of how much do you obsess over it, for how many days? It might be interesting in passing that-- I don't know. I'm trying to think of a recent--
POTTINGER: O.J. Simpson's book.
KLEIN: Yeah. So that was interesting in a number of ways because of the questions it raised about the moral responsibility of a corporation--
POTTINGER: How would you have done that?
KLEIN: Well, we never would have paid for the interview to begin with. I don't know why it took them so long to figure out what an atrocity that was but--
POTTINGER: Would you have watched the show if it had aired?
KLEIN: I think I would have had to have watched it-
POTTINGER: So would I. I don't like it but I would have watched it.
KLEIN: Yeah. I would watch Ahmadinejad's anti-Holocaust Conference too just because you have to know what's going on. Certainly in my position you do. The comings and goings of Paris Hilton really arent that interesting to most people by the way and--
POTTINGER: Do you think so really? The impression is the opposite.
KLEIN: It's a mistake to think of the audience as a monolith. That's what we used to have to do when there were just three channels or where there wasn't an internet. Now we have the luxury of understanding segmentation and understanding that there is a difference between the people who obsess over it. I'm not saying that the average news consumer, 40, 45-year-old guy who likes to keep abreast of everything that's going on, isn't going to give himself a little dessert with his meal. That is he's going to see what Ben Bernanke says and he's going to see what the President's doing and he's going to check out the latest news headlines and oh, yeah, if there is a- if there's a shot of Paris Hilton and she's doing something goofy maybe if he has the time he'll check it out.
POTTINGER: What's your proudest moment since you've been here?
KLEIN: We've had a number of them. I probably felt-- I felt most proud of us when Katrina hit and the organization responded without having to be told what to do. By then I had been here for a better part of a year and we had talked a lot about reporting in depth and taking your time, a lot of the things that we're talking about here, and the organization, many of whose members were cut off from communication-- They were down there and you couldn't get out via telephone too easily. They just had to rely on their instincts as storytellers and reporters and you could see that they were just immersed in the story and sharing it with America and that was a phenomenal moment.
POTTINGER: What's the most shameful thing that's happened since you've been here?
KLEIN: I turned in my expense report late a couple months ago and I feel ashamed about that and it will never happen again I promise.
POTTINGER: You cut out Crossfire. Why did you do that?
KLEIN: Crossfire had been a show that was around for about 20 years already and sort of felt that our coverage of politics in general had not evolved as quickly as politics itself had. There's been a sea change in political fundraising, in message management, in identifying core audiences and voters, just in the last two or three years, and here we were still using a format we had pioneered but that was available everywhere so we were not differentiating ourselves, we were not providing a public service in any way, we were not illuminating issues by screaming at each other. It was all so staged and phony and we've talked about Lou Dobbs and we've talked about Anderson Cooper and Wolf Blitzer and these are people who have a real authenticity about them. The audience smells a fraud and they were smelling a fraud there and I was smelling it too and so we just said, "Fresh start. Let's figure out a different way to sink our teeth into political coverage." And as a result we have this phenomenal hit show The Situation Room which- whose gimmick is the news. We give you a lot of news. Right? We've done things like the Broken Government series which delves in depth into what's wrong with our government and what could be better, what could fix it? And the viewers are responding to that much more than the tired, old yawn fest that it had become.
POTTINGER: As a corporate executive as well as someone who has editorial control of content, when do you find that your corporate duties conflict with what you want to deliver to the public?
KLEIN: We're in a fortunate position and this is no B.S. The more responsible journalism we provide, the more fascinating we make information for the viewers. The more we share our passion for the news, the better our business does. That's been proven the last two years that I've been here. We've focused on that and our business has never been in better shape.
POTTINGER: You bring us international news. What kind of deals do you have to cut with the devil elsewhere whether it's say a China or an old Baghdad, the Peter Arnett controversy that occurred some years ago before you were here? What kind of problems do you have dealing with people who do really want to censor you?
KLEIN: We haven't in the time I have been here run into any issues along those lines. We report the news the way we need to report it. I presume if anything ever were censored we would report it as such and disclose that to the audience but we call it like we see it and there are-- On any given day you're going to tick off any number of very powerful people. What you're most concerned about is the safety and security of your people who are in some dangerous spots around the world, not only Iraq but certainly Iraq as well, and you want to be mindful of that but you've got a story to report. I just had a guy in my office yesterday who is one of our hard core Baghdad correspondents and we've got some controversial work coming down the pike and I said, "Well, what do you think we ought to do?" And he said, "Just print it, Baby. You got to do it. You got to bring it to the people."
POTTINGER: What do you do to relax?
KLEIN: I do this. I do interviews and I find this very relaxing. I'm getting a pedicure as we're speaking. It's very enjoyable and-- No. I hang out with my kids, which just instantly erases the pressures of the day. I came home last night at the end of a typical day which is just filled with incoming and not enough pushing forward and a lot of reacting and you're all balled up at the end of the day and then of course you're thinking about the 50 things you didn't get done and the garage door opens and my little girl, who's 4-1/2, comes running out in her pajamas and just jumps into--
POTTINGER: Says, "Who are you? I havent seen you for four months."
KLEIN: Yeah. She starts giving me the agenda. She's-- I see them every day, thank God, but she just starts in on me and it just- it hits the erase button, which is fabulous.
POTTINGER: Have you ever brought your kids down here?
KLEIN:Not in to this set. They love coming to my office and staring out the window and looking at the cars-
POTTINGER: Id put a fire truck over there in a minute.
KLEIN: Oh, for sure. Are you kidding? My son could play cars. He could shoot his cars down here back and forth all day. They just never get beyond my window. They love looking out the window at how little the cars are--
POTTINGER: As Plum viewers, they're now going to ask Daddy to come down here--
KLEIN: Yeah, definitely, because he'd be ready for it. The jig is up, yeah. I think my kids are still so young they don't get that there's- that the people aren't actually in the television. They're always a little worried when they watch Animal Planet that the animals are going to jump out--
POTTINGER: Are you telling me they aren't in the television?
KLEIN: Oh, okay. I'll show you that. That'll be next and have part two.
POTTINGER: At what age should people start watching CNN to become good political citizens?
KLEIN: We have a lot of viewers who are in their teens who love the-- First of all, people love television. They-- People would rather watch a story than read it and we've seen that as broadband has penetrated the internet and the internet has become basically a TV delivery vehicle in different forms because different platforms are part of different methods but YouTube's explosive popularity is driven by the fact that people love to sit there and watch videos. So anybody these days can watch CNN on a portable device, on their computer, on their television, and you're never too young.
POTTINGER: Trying to make a distinction between news and opinion: We talked about Lou Dobbs a moment ago. How do you as an editorial director, as president of news, impart a sense of standards on that question?
KLEIN: One thing I always say to folks is only Lou Dobbs could be Lou Dobbs because Lou really has a good innate sense. He's a managing editor of his show and he's a long term journalist who's been doing this for 30, 35 years so he knows how to do it. Not everyone else should try it. Even folks who may have been in the business for 20 some odd years may get a wild hair and think that they can. You're best off providing the stories straight and providing analysis if you care to do that but you've got to be very careful about that what you're saying is truly analysis and not your opinion masquerading as objective investigation or what have you. So you got to be really careful with it and we frown on it and if anybody ever wanted to do it we'd take a hell of a lot of time before it ever got on the air.
POTTINGER: Reports and polls say that between 90 and 95% of people involved in news are Democrats. Why is that?
KLEIN: Probably because the news business arose in the corridor between New York and D.C., especially in New York. New York's a heavily Democratic area. It tends to attract college educated folks so there again you have a little bit of a tilt toward a certain point of view and then people start hiring people who are like them. It makes for a less interesting product if you're essentially providing only one point of view and you have to work hard, all of us do as journalists, to make sure that a whole range of points of view are represented. It starts with the staff that you've got in house but I will say that in all my years in journalism I've never known the political affiliation of the people who I worked with. It's just not talked about in a newsroom. You just don't know. Now I went in to the internet for six years and there everybody was so open about it, it felt weird to me, and I actually had to scold a manager of my company about, "Hey, we don't talk about politics here." And she said, "Why not?" So it's-- There's a distinction there.
POTTINGER: Is television, given its power-- Has it become the fourth estate? Has it become the ministry of cultural affairs in America so you have a direct impact on not only congressmen but the public at large?
KLEIN: You sure do and that happened a long time ago and the best you can do if you're us at CNN is act responsibly, double, triple check your facts, don't just swallow the spin. One of the hardest things for us to do is to distinguish between when a politician or other type of official is giving us the truth or tailoring a message and that's what we push hard to get beyond. One of the most famous moments in CNN's recent history was during Katrina when Anderson Cooper in the field, standing there knee deep in muck interviewing Senator Mary Landrieu, just wouldn't tolerate the spin. It became clearer in that moment to the journalist that the politician was posturing. It's not always as clear and you have to remain vigilant about that.
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