Open Exchange: Beyond the Boardroom with Jonathan Tisch

Amagansett, NY
Season 2, Episode 2

GUEST: Jeff Zucker, CEO, NBC Universal
HOST: Jonathan Tisch

JONATHAN TISCH: Jeff, we're here, it's a gorgeous day in the Hamptons, a beach community. You grew up in a little bit of a different beach community, Miami Beach. You were known as the little man with big ideas. Is that a proper way to describe your childhood?

JEFF ZUCKER: You've done some good research, Jon.

TISCH: We spare no expense at Open Exchange.

ZUCKER: Clearly, clearly. I had a great childhood. I did grow up in Miami which was a very different Miami than it is today. I grew up playing tennis every day of my life.

TISCH: An avid tennis player.

ZUCKER: An avid tennis player since probably the age of six or seven.

TISCH: Captain of the team.

ZUCKER: Captain of the team and played junior tennis all over the State of Florida. And I guess my two big pursuits growing up were tennis and school.

TISCH: And I would say probably also politics because you were president of every class when you were going through high school.

ZUCKER: Well, it really is an impressive research project you've done there. Yeah, my slogan running initially was "The Little Man with Big Ideas", because I was a little man and never really grew in height. That's actually what kept me from actually really moving in tennis is that I never grew up. Had I actually grown, you know, my dreams of playing center court at Wimbledon might have come true. But because that didn't happen, I was always interested in politics and I was president of each of my classes, ninth, tenth, eleventh and twelfth grades. And, you know, that and tennis were my two interests.

TISCH: I read that you wanted to play for the Miami Dolphins. Which position did you think you were going to be a superstar at?

ZUCKER: Well, Jon, come on, I was going to play quarterback, of course.

TISCH: Oh, right, of course.

ZUCKER: Yeah, well, it is true. Actually, I do have to refine what I said. I would say my three real interests growing up as a child were tennis, politics government in school, and the Miami Dolphins. And after school every day we would play pick-up touch football and then I'd go play tennis. And those were the two things and that was my whole life every day: football and tennis. And to this day, the Miami Dolphins are avid interests of mine.

TISCH: Except when you go to a Giants game.

ZUCKER: Well, that goes without saying, of course, you know. Unless, of course, the Giants are playing the Dolphins and then it's very conflicting.

TISCH: I understand.

ZUCKER: But I remember vividly going to my first football game with my dad and I happened to start going to football games in 1972. I was seven years old. And that was the year the Dolphins went 17 and 0, the only perfect season in football. So it was a pretty good year to get hooked on football. And then I never missed a Dolphins' home game from '72 'til I went away to college in '82.

TISCH: And somehow the Miami Beach boy became the Cambridge boy. Ended up at Harvard, became head of The Crimson. What were the four years in Boston like?

ZUCKER: You know, Cambridge was a great experience for me. It was a great maturing experience. It was a great educational experience. I spent most of my time at the college newspaper, The Crimson which was a great experience as well because I was really running my first business.

TISCH: Did that start pretty much from the moment you got there?

ZUCKER: Yeah. I got on the newspaper my freshman year and I went on to the sports section. My career has always been-- my life has always been I came up through sports. And then I would transfer over to the news side. I did that in high school, I did it in college and then I did it at NBC. I started my freshman year at Harvard on the sports section. I became the president of The Crimson my junior year. And it was a great experience. I often think about how much fun it would be if I could just go back for a year now and take a year off. I always wanted to get a Neeman Fellowship and go back and study at Harvard. And I, you know, just went up to my 20th reunion and I was thinking, "Boy, how can I come back up here for a year," and I have great memories of it.

TISCH: And then there was sort of a tall redhead kid who was working at The Harvard Lampoon by the name of Conan O'Brian and ironically, obviously now he works with you at NBC. But were you guys rivals in those days? Did you know each other well?

ZUCKER: Oh, yeah, we knew each other. I hated him.

TISCH: How did you express it?

ZUCKER: Well, "hate" might be a harsh word but, no, we were serious rivals. He was in charge of The Lampoon.

TISCH: You even had him arrested.

ZUCKER: Well, I sought to have him arrested.

TISCH: Right, that was a bit harsh.

ZUCKER: Well, hey, you know, they were stealing stuff from The Crimson. And, you know, it pissed me off.

TISCH: When you guys bump into each other at 30 Rock now, does that ever--

ZUCKER: No, we rarely talk about it although it's-- uses good fodder. When I ask Conan--

TISCH: If he's roasting you at a dinner--

ZUCKER: When I ask Conan to roast me or introduce me or something, Conan was the two-time president for The Harvard Lampoon which is a big honor because I don't think anybody's ever been president of The Lampoon twice. And I was president of The Crimson so The Lampoon and The Crimson are natural rivals. And they thought they were funny. They weren't funny. And, you know, we were putting out a serious newspaper every day and, you know, they didn't have anything to do because they put out a magazine once a month if they were lucky. So they would often just steal stuff from us and come in and take our prize possession. And one time they did that and I called the Cambridge police and tried to have them arrested but--

TISCH: Did they chuckle when you--

ZUCKER: No, I actually think they were kind of upset with me. And I understand that but, you know, Conan and I have laughed about it many times since.

TISCH: And then you wanted to go to Harvard Law.

ZUCKER: I did.

TISCH: And they didn't want you.

ZUCKER: They did not want me. I did not get into Harvard Law School. I thank God every day today that I didn't get in because I do think that if I had gotten in I would have gone. But I did want to go to law school. The truth is when I was graduating from Harvard, I didn't really know exactly what I wanted to do and I think what happens a lot of times in those situations is when you don't know exactly what you want to do you go to law school. But I did have an interest in it. I always thought I wanted to go into government. And I actually thought that that would be a way to get me there. And I remember vividly getting the rejection letter from Harvard Law School.

TISCH: Was it the only place you applied?

ZUCKER: No, I applied to about five or six law schools and I got into the others but I didn't get into Harvard and I couldn't believe it.

TISCH: Here's a kid who probably accomplished anything that you had wanted at 22 years old.

ZUCKER: I had, yeah. I had, you know, pretty much been able to do anything I wanted to do. And in many ways, I think it was a great blessing in disguise. It was really learning about rejection, not getting everything you want and it obviously would have taken me down a very different path. But I think it all worked out okay. But I remember that day of not getting in and I was crushed. I couldn't believe it.

TISCH: Call your parents and--

ZUCKER: I did. I remember calling my dad and I couldn't believe it. I was stunned. And then life went on.

TISCH: It's been chronicled a lot in stories about you how you ended up as an intern at the '88 Olympics.

ZUCKER: Well, what happened, talking about law school, was that I did get into several law schools and I decided to accept to the University of Virginia Law School. And on the day that I graduated from Harvard, I got a call from NBC Sports offering me an opportunity to work on the '88 Seoul Olympics. I had applied for the job but I hadn't heard back from them and I was graduating and this was it. I had to figure out what I was going to do. And on that day, they finally called and offered me a position as the Olympic researcher.

TISCH: Had you just sent in an application?

ZUCKER: No, I had worked as an intern in the '84 Olympics for ABC in Los Angeles which was a great, great, fun experience. And that's where I really got hooked on television because I remember just watching the control room and watching Rune Arlidge and working there. And it really, really was a huge experience for me. And the day that I graduated from Harvard, my phone rang and NBC Sports called to offer me a job as the Olympic researcher for the Seoul Olympics. And I took it immediately. I decided law school could wait and I wanted to work on the '88 Olympics. And what I always assumed was that I would go work fro NBC Sports for two years and then I would go back to law school. So I deferred to UVA for two years which-- one of the reasons that I liked UVA was that they allowed a two-year deferral as opposed to the others that--

TISCH: I was going to say, do you think they're still holding your position?

ZUCKER: Well, you know, there are days where I wonder whether I could, you know, see if I could activate that. There are certain days. And, you know, I will tell you, just as an aside, I have always had this thing in the back of my mind about going to law school. It's always, like, there have been periods in my life where I've gone and gotten applications in New York for night law school. I have al-- I have never been able to get it out of my head that I wanted to go to law school. And, again, I don't think it's about practicing law for me.

TISCH: It's a way of thinking.

ZUCKER: It's a way of thinking and I just have never been able to get it out of my head. But, anyway, I deferred for two years and I took the job at NBC Sports and here we are 20 years later still at NBC.

TISCH: And then you end up once again chronicled as a young wiz kid at The Today Show. And you got there, the show had been on for some, what 40 years--

ZUCKER: Forty years by that time.

TISCH: -- prior to the time you got there. But you changed it and made it even better.

ZUCKER: Well, we had a great run with The Today Show. There's no question. It, you know, when I got to The Today Show, I was 24 years old after the Olympics. And the truth is I had never really seen The Today Show. Now that's a slight exaggeration. I knew what The Today Show was and I had probably seen it once or twice. But I had never really watched it because don't forget, I was in high school, I was out the door before the show was on. I was in college; I never woke up in time for The Today Show. And then when I was at NBC Sports I was traveling around the world and so I never really got a chance to see it. I showed up at The Today Show and pretended that I knew exactly what it was and was doing it. And in many respects, that probably ended up helping me as I moved up the ladder of The Today Show because I think the key thing that we did at The Today Show was that we understood the tradition of The Today Show but we weren't bound by it. And so whatever had come before us, we respected it, we understood it, but we didn't let that set the template for what we decided to do.

TISCH: When you came up with some of the changes that have now become so associated, having the set at 30 Rock right on the street of New York and bringing in Matt and Katie and some of the other innovations. Did these all come out of hours and hours of meetings or were these ideas that came to you while you were taking a shower or on the way to work?

ZUCKER: You know, every one of them-- every thing was different. I mean, look, you know, the street side studio which was not my initial idea. I think we executed it. But that has turned into just a huge signature for the programme, one of the great things for the City of New York. A great thing for NBC, a great thing for The Today Show. And the City of New York has been fantastic in working with us.

TISCH: It's an incredible set for you.

ZUCKER: It's great. And I think that's the thing that nobody realizes when they try to copy it. Others have tried to do street side studios in New York and I understand because it has worked. But you can't capture the magic of Rockefeller Center and what happens there. And that really is the center of the world.

TISCH: Absolutely.

ZUCKER: Right there. And we are the window on the world at the center of the world. And so I understand others wanting to have a street side studio. But nobody could copy that. And then, you know, we came up with lots of other ideas. I mean, we changed the first half hour of the The Today Show when we made it a 22-minute uninterrupted, commercial-free news half hour and that just made sense in the way to put the programme together. We came up with "Where in the World is Matt Lauer?" That was born entirely out of me having children and watching a children's programme called "Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?" I just liked the title and I liked the theme song. And so we just played off "Where in the World is Matt Lauer?" and we didn't really know what it was. We would often say, you know, "Concept by us, execution by you". We would come up with a title and we would have our producers figure it out. And that was a-- it was a great gimmick that we came up with. The outdoor concert series which has become a real signature of the show was really just a-- wanting to figure out how to entertain the huge audiences that started showing up. And we didn't want to do anything inside anymore. We wanted to do everything outside. And we came up with the concert series. And I remember the time we had Ricky Martin outside when Ricky Martin was hotter than any singer in the world and we had, you know, 6,000, 7,000 people show up for this days in advance. Brittany Spears, when she was hotter than everything and the crowds were just huge. So that was great. And then we came up with "Today Throws a Wedding." And we wanted to do that outside and we wanted to really figure out a way to invest the audience at home in deciding how a couple would get married. So there were just lots of different ideas that we just brainstormed.

TISCH: The trick with The Today Show, I would imagine, is that in-- historically two hours, now three hours, you have to go from breaking news and then pivot to weddings. But pivot to the latest diet craze, pivot to Brittany Spears' interview with Matt Lauer. That's got to be a real challenge.

ZUCKER: Right. But that's what makes The Today Show, I think, the best show in television. And that's why the people who host that show, whether it was, you know, Bryant Gumble or Jane Pauley or Matt Lauer or Katie Couric or Meredith Vieira or whoever it is, they are unique because their ability to run the gamut and to make that quick pivot is so hard. And-- but they make it so effortless and seamless and that's why they've had such success with it and that's why the show has been so successful.

TISCH: Obviously The Today Show is going through a transition. When Katie announced that she was leaving you came up with the idea for Meredith Vieira and then somewhat ironically, because you're also in charge of news, Katie now becomes a competitor.

ZUCKER: Right.

TISCH: You must have a lot of emotions going on here. You're-- obviously you're excited for her as a friend but she's going to be a tough competitor.

ZUCKER: Oh, no. We're going to kick her butt. You know, look, obviously, yeah, it's been a year filled with mixed emotions for me on this subject. Obviously, I am very happy for her personally, you know, and I think she was ready for a new challenge and one that we couldn't offer her at NBC because of the great job that Brian Williams has done. And CBS had a hole and had an opportunity for her and I understand her wanting to take that chance. I get it. I did The Today Show for many years and I left, too. It's a hard, hard grind. And so, you know, I understand it and I'm pleased for her personally. And, yes, now she'll be a competitor and--

TISCH: Are you going to tease her? Are you going to send her emails?

ZUCKER: No, we're just going to work to make sure that she remains a solid second for the rest of her career. And she knows that and I think from a competitive standpoint, we are in great shape. I think that Brian Williams has done a great job as the successor to Tom Brokaw and has really made that show his own over the last couple of years especially his work down on Hurricane Katrina last year. And, you know, Katie's a very capable competitor and obviously very strong and she'll do a good job for them. But I feel confident we'll be okay and our ability to keep her in second place will give me new ammunition to tease her for the next five, ten years.

TISCH: As the boss you have a lot of areas, a lot of very public areas to keep an eye on, NBC MSNBC, CNBC, Broavo, USA. Some of the divisions are doing well. Some are under stress. Clearly the programming division, prime-time, which maybe gets more attention than it deserves. Is under some pressure today. Is the criticism or the focus on primetime fair?

ZUCKER: That comes with the territory. And so, is it fair? Its fair because that's what gets the lions share of the attention. And so you have to deal with it. NBC Entertiantainment was number one for 10 years. I was out there for four of those years where we were number 1 and we got great acclaim for that decade and now its been two very difficult seasons. We got great acclaim when we were good. You gotta take the critism when your down. We'll get it turned around, but it's a very public thing to live through and I think that's why you just have to deal with it. You can't become defensive about it. You cant say, "Yeah, but everything else is working, so cut us a break on this.", that's not the way it works. That's like saying, "American forgeing policy is going really well around the world but we have this one little problem in Iraq." It doesnt work that way and you have to be mature about it.

TISCH: Your strategy for turning around Prime time has been described as Mass and Class. Obviously reality shows have a big impact today. Where do the two come together, where do they butt heads, and how can they coexist?

ZUCKER: Well, I think not everything has to be mass and class, but you need both. I think mass and class is the right way to describe it. I think quality programming is what people expect from NBC and we haven't been as successful in the last few years of developing and introducing those quality programs. I think you can't just have just quality without mass quality. Because otherwise we won't succeed.

TISCH: During your years at The Today Show you obviously came up with the management style that worked. What is that style and is it still very much in place now that you're at the top rungs of management?

ZUCKER: Yeah, I think the biggest thing that I always sought to do was to support the people who worked for me, was to make sure that I was appreciative of what they were doing but also pushed them. And so the people who work for me hear from me almost every day with words of encouragement or support or questions of how they're doing so that when things are tough and things aren't going well, I have the credibility to be able to talk to them. And I think that that is something that I learned from having managers that I take in my role seriously as a manager. I'm always there for the people who work for me, supporting them, guiding them, talking to them. But then that gives me the credibility to be there when things are not going well. And I'm a guy who likes to throw out ten ideas and I know that eight of them are stupid. But I like to challenge and make the folks who work with me think about these things. I really believe that the people who work for me respect me and like working for me. And that's really important to me.

TISCH: Jeff, you've worked your entire professional career at NBC. You're now the boss. Do you feel a responsibility to the decades of history?

ZUCKER: Yeah.

TISCH: Of what NBC has stood for?

ZUCKER: Sure. Of course. You know, I'm celebrating my 20-year anniversary this August at NBC and, of course, I do feel a huge responsibility to what NBC has meant, not just in broadcasting, but in this country. It's been one of the most important companies in the history of this country. And that's a huge responsibility that you can't take lightly. It's a little bit like The Today Show, though, that I talked about earlier. I think you have to be-- I think you have to understand that tradition or that history. But you can't always be bound by it. And if you say that, "We've got to do it this way because that's the way it's always been done," then you probably make a mistake and you get left behind. But it's a huge responsibility that I have and I take it very seriously.

TISCH: Could you ever work for anybody else?

ZUCKER: There have been days through my career where I've often wondered what it would have been like to get off at a different subway stop. And I'm sure that-- I'm sure I could have worked at other places and there are many great companies out there. I've been incredibly lucky and fortunate to spend these 20 years at NBC and I wouldn't have wanted it any other way. But there are many great companies.

TISCH: The boss at _________ entertainment division is Bob Wright. He's been on our show. He has talked a lot about corporate leadership, responsibility, having people respect what the goals and the missions of the company are. Is he a mentor? Is he someone that you learned a lot from?

ZUCKER: Oh, sure. Bob came to NBC in August of 1986, and I came the same month. I've watched him and looked up to him for all 20 years. And he's been somebody who I have always gone to, both personally and professionally. He's an unbelievably smart leader, businessman. His mind is so much further ahead of anybody else who's ever in the room. He sees things very clearly and he's somebody to really look up to in an incredible way.

TISCH: Well, the word on the street is that you could take over for him some day. Is that an aspiration, a goal?

ZUCKER: You know, I've never really had any kind of career game plan. I thought I was going to go to law school and I ended up at NBC Sports. I thought I would be there for two years and I ended up at The Today Show which I had never seen. I spent eight years at The Today Show and I ended up in Burbank at the entertainment division where I never expected to live. I came back to New York. I've never had a set goal of what I wanted to do or where I wanted to be. Thats all worked itself out and Im really not that worried about the future. It'll all sort itself out one way or the other.

TISCH: On the personal side, you fought back colon cancer. You were very aggressive in terms of your treatment. And you kept up a work schedule and you've now put it behind you. What did that battle do to your thinking and your philosophy on work, life and family?

ZUCKER: Well, I was both unlucky and lucky. I was unlucky to get colon cancer twice, when I was 31 and then again when I was 34. And, you know, those were tough years and those were tough experiences. I have a vivid memory of waking up in the recovery room twice and just being in more pain than anybody should ever be in. And then I went through chemotherapy for about a year but it was important for me to keep working through that because that was a-- something that allowed me to keep a sense of who I was and to not lose sight of getting through that difficult time. But I also consider myself the luckiest guy in the world because I was very fortunate to find the cancer both times relatively early and to deal with it and I'm incredibly healthy. And it gave me tremendous perspective on what's important in life. I think, you know, I still am very driven and very competitive and still work very hard. But I also understand that that's just work and I have my life and my health and I have my wife and our children. And if work went away tomorrow, that'd be okay because I have my health and I have my life and I have my family. And nothing else matters and I probably did not have that perspective before I went through all of that.

TISCH: If you weren't doing this, if you werent the head of one of the most powerful entertainment groups in the world, what would you be doing? What could you be doing?

ZUCKER: Well, given that I probably couldn't make it to center court at Wimbledon and that I couldn't make it to the football field to be the quarterback of the Dolphins, I'd probably want to be in some form of government. I'd like to have run for elective office and have played a role in government. Like I said to you before, I've never really had a game plan and a time table for anything. But it's certainly in the back of my mind.

TISCH: Do you have any regrets?

ZUCKER: I really don't. I'm glad that I didn't get into Harvard Law School and I'm glad that I deferred for two years from UVA Law School. And I don't look back on anything.

TISCH: Thank you.

ZUCKER: It was great, Jon, thanks.